Curse

axe · Oct 12, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear.

"While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation."

Technically, it doesn't limit Player-vs-Player to the format of PvP in-game. Therefore, the arguement could be made that Grenth vs. Dwayna is a player-vs-player format and because of this the district allocation is match manipulation and bannable under the EULA.

"Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people's game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching."

Again, because the definition was not limited solely to the PvP format of the game, Grenth v. Dwayna could easily be defined as "manipulating the outcome of a match". It could also be said that forcing other players to stand on a certain side of the map would be "disrupting other people's game experience by not actively participating".

See how that works? Nice to see my minor is Law didn't completely go to waste.....ohwait....yea it did.

I would argue this because its a PvE zone, its not a "mission" all PvP gameplay takes place in Mission, in other words you have to press an "Enter" button before you get "matched up" with another team, this defines a match IMO, but since there is no place where it is clearly defined anywhere its just a matter of peoples opinions.

Look at it this way, a match would consist of teams being assigned a color (Blue, Red, Yellow) match manipulation happens during these activities not in a PvE zone.

Sync Dancing could be considered match manipulation, or conga lines, this is grasping at straws to say that organizing events in a PvE zone is considered "match" manipulation, but it doesnt bother me if people feel this way.

Karate Jesus · Oct 12, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

No. during wintersday/halloween NPCs can kill/resurrect you in a town, where they normally can't. so one might be inclined to say it's more PvE, than PvP. I'd say something snide about law school, but i'll refrain.

You may be right, but that doesn't change the fact that the EULA doesn't state it as otherwise. In it's current form, the rule could EASILY be used to apply to Grenth v. Dwayna. Saying, "No." doesn't make that not true. Sorry *shrugs*

HawkofStorms · Oct 12, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

On the RR quest - why is it repeatable? That would stop a lot of the 'RR Abuse' right there if the quest couldn't be re-taken.

Unless - all PvP ZQuests are repeatable? Dunno as I don't PvP...

First, all PvP quests are repeatable.

Second of all, that wouldn't fix anything. Because then people could just create a PvP character, get the quest reward. Throw the stuff in storage, delete. New PvP character, repeat.

Taddayo Kun · Oct 12, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

No. during wintersday/halloween NPCs can kill/resurrect you in a town, where they normally can't. so one might be inclined to say it's more PvE, than PvP. I'd say something snide about law school, but i'll refrain.

Npc's are prominent in a large amount of PVP across the game. Ab, JQ, FA, ra and ta to a lesser extent (enemy priest) HA, gvg and, most importantly HERO BATTLES sine we bring 3 npc's with us. So npc=pve is not a good argument.

gone · Oct 12, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taddayo Kun

Npc's are prominent in a large amount of PVP across the game. Ab, JQ, FA, ra and ta to a lesser extent (enemy priest) HA, gvg and, most importantly HERO BATTLES sine we bring 3 npc's with us. So npc=pve is not a good argument.

I'm pretty sure the npcs in question (holiday specific ones) are PvE exclusive. I've yet to have the mad king defeat me in a hero battle because I didn't /kneel whilst trying to spike him.

axe · Oct 12, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

From the GW Website

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/pvp/

Also you cant take a PvP ONLY character to LA, etc..

You dont get balthazar faction when Grenth or Dwayna wins

I dont think its worth discussing as a way to "justify" RR being OK

Gun Pierson · Oct 12, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

O I see.
I can unlock multiple valuable skills (possibly 100s?) with the multiple headpieces that I get via halloween/christmas district jumping. there is a big advantage there.

Developers meant for me to be able to get thousands of gold, keys, and faction by taking a quest and /resign.

I don't know about you, but I make hundreds of k's on a finale day, several accounts that get gifts in LA and then Spamadan right after because of the delay. Thanks to the manipulation.

@ Fril: like Karate Jesus and Aussie Boy explained...wintersday finale is player versus player, it's PvP in PvE disguise. The fact that NPC's orchestrate the match doesn't matter. The gifts or rewards always come from Anet.

I'm not justifying RR, I just notice double standards.

slowerpoke · Oct 12, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

This situation further illustrates what a shitty title grindfest Guild Wars has become.
ANet seem to be oblivious of trends (not just this one) in their own game, or simply don't care

gone · Oct 12, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

This situation further illustrates what a shitty title grindfest Guild Wars has become.
ANet seem to be oblivious of trends (not just this one) in their own game, or simply don't care

and the puke bucket is going to overflow right onto GW2. I'm also sure they are aware of the trends because as stated earlier in this very thread "Too many people, too many high-end and involved people at that."

Karate Jesus · Oct 12, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

This situation further illustrates what a shitty title grindfest Guild Wars has become.
ANet seem to be oblivious of trends (not just this one) in their own game, or simply don't care

I'm leaning towards the "don't care" side. They obviously know these trends exist or the wouldn't be removing HB and TA. According to the journal entries of Regina and Linsey, they know a lot of stuff is going on....they are apparently either "too busy" or "don't have enough staff" to care.

A good example is the bug list. That thing is ridiculously long now. Even Joe Kimmes made a statement recently about how out-of-hand that has gotten. They need to pick the Live Test Krewe already so the QA team can actually try to address that list (or play Aion...w/e it is they're paid for).

Fril Estelin · Oct 12, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie Boy

rules are rules

In theory, they should be the practice. In practice the theory doesn't apply.

In other words: rules are not rules.

Seriously: most businesses are not stringent on "rules", or all employees would have to become lawyers.

Painbringer · Oct 12, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I fail to see how a person can think they have much rights when involved to a video game besides the basic one (this not being one of them). You would really need to be invested into it to push it on a legal plateau. They have all the records at there finger tips. And if you are the average Joe I am sure if you did this you bragged to somebody about it. With that being said hummmm

Xolotov · Oct 12, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Perma Shadow

there will be other farms like this, you can only slow down the process

I believe this is the only result to any nerf. However, anet could be silly and change the colors to pink and yellow.

MithranArkanere · Oct 12, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I would just completely remove the title altogether, and blame those that used /rolls and colors.
It's only their fault.

I Angra I · Oct 12, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

it's not like this is the first pvp title to be exploited (bspike for champ points, dtsc etc. for kurz/luxon points) or the first way to get huge amounts of zkeys with no investment at all (xunlai house)

though the sooner the better with anet removing hb, obviously, but I dont really see what the big issue is other than a) the gw economy being affected by it (it's been affected in many other drastic ways already), and b) being mad that people are getting free money/titles and you arent

Karate Jesus · Oct 12, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I would just completely remove the title altogether, and blame those that used /rolls and colors.
It's only their fault.

Too late. It's already in a lot of HoMs. Be a big mess to undo that.

lilDeath · Oct 12, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Well, many people have covered it already, but ANet is pretty much solely to blame for the whole HB situation at the moment. What can they do? Well, quite a lot, but whether they WILL is a whole other matter.

For +-2 years now, the HB community have been asking for HB changes / fixes. Izzy promised changes were coming. Nothing came.

What is even more funny, is this thread alone has generated so much attention for HB, the HB forum was never this busy. It is quite something to see and quite ironic.

So, this community-created event has surely sparked a definite increased interest in HB, even if it is for all the wrong reasons - money (free zkeys), easy title grinding (zaishen + commander) and increased BF cap.

The fact that since ANet announced that the arena is going to be removed is just making it worse, since everyone wants to get as much reward as they can, while the opportunities are there - just check what happens at Discount sales in shops on the last day, for a comparison... it is natural human behaviour to get something as easily as possible with as little effort / value as possible.
RR has existed for months, ever since /roll was removed. (See above and below for why we find ourselves in this seemingly 'new' situation.)

The same principle applies to the griefers, who refuse to resign, they have a purpose too - to irritate and in their mind also gain something easily, while justifying the means that they are doing it 'correctly', while in essence also abusing and gaining from the 'fast RR system' - that gives them some satisfaction instead.

Going back to the current HB situation - even more recent, since the beginning of the year... The HB community has tried even harder to get the HB arena sorted out by applying small and easy fixes - one of the members (I hope he won't mind me mentioning him - Draikin) himself has been in direct contact with Izzy and Linsey on several occasions about the issues surrounding HB. He even gathered input from the regular HB players, which had years of experience in playing the format.

This post by Draikin in Gaile's Support section on the GWW, just sums it up beautifully for me:

Quote:

Gaile, I'm sure you remember the support issue I submitted back in June where I spent a month debating the issue of match manipulation with HB. I submitted screenshots, detailed explanations and videos showing the various kinds of match manipulation going on in the fomat, but was told it wasn't enough proof for Anet to take action. You eventually forwarded the information to the Live team, saying they'll be "very interested in what you have to share". It appears the solution the Live team found was to delete the format altogether. You now say you don't know how the Live Team will address this issue, but I don't believe that. You know what will happen: they'll ignore it the same way they've ignored the complaints about the many issues in Hero Battles over the past years. Anet has clearly worked with double standards when it comes to enforcing rules in GvG and HB. In Hero Battles, match manipulation has always gone unpunished. First the excuse was that they Anet just didn't know about the manipulation and it was essentially our fault for not telling them, but obviously that wasn't true since my efforts to make you guys aware of the problems have been ignored as well. I hear that there were up to 63 American districts in HB on the recent "RR" day. This is the result of years of Anet ignoring a format and letting it rot despite people begging them to look at the problems there. Are we seriously supposed to believe Anet is actually going to do anything about the people resigning, when they're going to delete the format anyway? Of course not. --Draikin 13:30, 11 October 2009

Source

ANet created this monster, they are fully to blame.
Instead of fixing it, like they said 2 years ago they would do and continuing to say so through this year - even having the HB community doing most of the work on what needed to be fixed, gathering info, etc. - ANet rather decide to remove it completely.

Furthermore, fine... RR is against the EULA, but then so is botting and leeching / afking JQ / FA and AB. What about Bspike in GvG (to a lesser extent), and SC's (8min UW anyone? - UW was never meant to be this fast). So, when will they ban these people?
Taking it further, what will they do to these people that just leave RA matches at start (after skimming the group) without even trying... that is also match manipulation.
Oh, and what about RA syncing?

So, what can Anet do? Not much I think - Remove HB, reduce / remove BF reward, introduce Dishonor, mass ban...???
HB is being removed anyway, as once again, was stated several times before. If they do end up doing something, like banning, they better be prepared for a drastically reduced server usage statistic.

All of this because they didn't do what they said they would, they didn't manage HB, nor did they listen to the community, but then this is nothing new for Anet.
I end this wall of text with this quote, for emphasis

Quote:

This is the result of years of Anet ignoring a format and letting it rot despite people begging them to look at the problems there.

FoxBat · Oct 12, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Hero Battles were fundamentally unsalvageable. They would need to pour an enormous effort into rewriting their AI just to make competitive play possible. They could've tried at least, but it would have failed in the end.

Esprit · Oct 12, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I imagine that Red Resign Day ranks rather low on Anet's priority list of issues to fix.

Honestly, I would rather have them working on fixing Xunlai, doing skill balances, bug fixes, content updates, etc...

Red Resign Day is really not that big of a deal, there is no real harm as result of Red Resign Day.

gone · Oct 12, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

I imagine that Red Resign Day ranks rather low on Anet's priority list of issues to fix.

Honestly, I would rather have them working on fixing Xunlai, doing skill balances, bug fixes, content updates, etc...

Red Resign Day is really not that big of a deal, there is no real harm as result of Red Resign Day.

just saying. lol. yeah.